The Ruling by the Floor
- By Kevin La Van
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- 28 Oct, 2024
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Hold on to your cards!!!
The other day I was called over to the table and walked into a small cluster. A tournament table called for the floor and as I arrived I was met with a chorus of voices shouting "misdeal, misdeal, misdeal.” The biggest thing you should takeaway from this post is NEVER toss your cards into a muck until you know that they should be mucked.
The Situation: Seat 1 and 2 had no cards (Fold, Fold), Seat 4 was All-In, Seat 6 was thinking, Seat 8 was the small blind and had 3 cards and Seat 9 was being blinded out but was big blind. Just as I began to assess the situation, the player in Seat 6 mistakenly mucked their cards, believing it was a misdeal.
The Rules: This situation required the entire TDA rule book to work out.
TDA Rule 35 Section A states “A misdeal occurs if “The wrong number of cards is dealt to a player” - so it’s simple right; declare a misdeal and move on, but….
TDA Rule 35 Section D states “Once substantial action occurs a misdeal cannot be declared, the hand must proceed unless the deck is fouled.”
TDA Rule 36 defines “Substantial Actions” as: “A” Any 2 actions in turn at least one of which puts in chips in the pot or “B” any combination of three actions in turn (check, bet, rise call, fold) Posted blinds do not count towards substantial action.
TDA Rule 1 states the floor decisions should always be made with the “best interest of the game and fairness to the players”
TDA Rule 2 talks about players responsibilities and states “Players should VERIFY they are dealt the correct number of cards before Substantial action occurs”
The Thought Process: My first thought was how the hell did a player in the middle of the action wind up with three cards; either two cards stuck together as they were dealt or he grabbed one of the dead cards from the player being blinded out so I had to figure out if it should be a misdeal because a player in the hand had too many cards. So, I looked at the action that occurred before I was called over; I had two folds and an All-In, so there was substantial action. With the action that occurred I could not declare a misdeal. Then I looked at what was left. I had a player all-in, I had a player that mucked his cards AFTER the floor was called because he assumed there was a misdeal, a player with three cards and a big blind with no player at the seat.
The Decision: I ruled that because of the substantial action that it was NOT a misdeal and that the player with three cards had the responsibility the verify his cards were incorrect before substantial action occurred. His hand was dead. Because no one at the table had live cards except the all-in player I awarded him the pot. The player in the 6 seat would have had live cards and could have called the all-in or folded, but because he assumed that it was a misdeal and his cards were not retrievable his hand was also dead.
The Takeaway: The players and the dealer made a mistake, once the floor is called or in any situation where you think there is a misdeal or something is off at the table HOLD YOUR CARDS and wait for the floor to arrive and access the situation. In this case the player in the 6 seat lost his chance to act because he folded after the flood was called.
In our next dealer meeting we will address how we as a room could have prevented this from happening and work to make sure we never make the same mistake twice. But, always hold your cards until you get a ruling.
The Situation: At the 1/2 cash table over the weekend we had a situation regarding if cards were mucked and dead or not. When I came over to the table there was a lot of yelling and emotions were running high. I walked into an all-in with a player on the 7 seat insisting that the pot was his because the player in the 5 seat mucked and folded his hand.
Talked to my dealer and she explained what had transpired: The player in the 5 seat went all in, the player in the 7 seat must have called without a lot of fanfare, which is perfectly fine, action moved around the table to players on the other side and they folded. The player in seat 5 thought he won the hand and tossed his cards face down on the flopped cards. Before the dealer took the cards the player realized he was facing a call and retrieved his cards to show two pair on the flop and he was ahead…… and this is where I came into the scene of the crime.
The Rules:
1: Floor Decisions
The best interest of the game and fairness are top priorities in decision-making. Unusual circumstances
occasionally dictate that common-sense decisions in the interest of fairness take priority over technical
rules. Floor decisions are final.
15: Showdown and Discarding Irregularities
A: If a player tables one card that would make a winning hand, the dealer should advise the player to
table all cards. If the player refuses, the floor should be called.
B: If a player bets then discards thinking they have won (forgetting another player is still in the hand), the
dealer should hold the cards and call the floor (a Rule 58 exception). If cards are mucked and not
retrievable and identifiable to 100% certainty, the player is out and not entitled to a refund of called bets. If
cards are mucked and the player initiated a bet or raise not yet called, the uncalled amount will be
returned.
65: Accidentally Killed / Fouled / Exposed Hands
A: Players must protect their hands at all times, including at showdown while waiting for hands to be read.
If the dealer kills a hand by mistake or if in TDs judgement a hand is fouled and cannot be identified to
100% certainty, the player has no redress and is not entitled to a refund of called bets. If the player
initiated a bet or raise and hasn’t been called, the uncalled amount will be returned.
B: If a hand is fouled but can be identified, it remains in play despite any cards exposed.
13: Tabling Cards and Killing Winning Hand
A: Proper tabling is both 1) turning all cards face up on the table and 2) allowing the dealer and players to
read the hand clearly. “All cards” means both hole cards in hold’em, all 4 hole cards in Omaha, all 7 cards
in 7-stud, etc.
B: At showdown players must protect their hands while waiting for cards to be read (See also Rule 65).
Players who don’t fully table all cards, then muck thinking they’ve won, do so at their own risk. If a hand is
not 100% retrievable and identifiable and the TD rules it was not clearly read, the player has no claim to
the pot. The TDs decision on whether a hand was sufficiently tabled is final.
C: Dealers cannot kill a properly tabled hand that was obviously the winner.
14: Live Cards at Showdown
Discarding non-tabled cards face down does not automatically kill them; players may change their minds
and table cards that remain 100% identifiable and retrievable. Cards are killed by the dealer when pushed
into the muck or otherwise rendered irretrievable and unidentifiable.
The Thought Process: Every time I walk over to a table ‘Rule 1’ is always flopping around in my head. There is always going to be someone that likes my ruling and someone that doesn’t like it. So, I always take personal feelings out and strive to make a fair ruling that’s in the best interest of fairness and the game.
I listened to the dealer, then I had an earful from the player that wanted the cards mucked. I reviewed the TDA Rules about mucked cards, and killed hands in my head. I also though, could this be some sort of angle shoot, to muck the cards and then retrieve them, of some sort. You have to go in with a totally open mind and look at it from every side.
The Decision: It was really an easy one. The cards never touched the muck and were fully retrievable and totally identifiable and there was no reason the player would be trying any sort of angle as the bets were already out and there was no additional action to come, so I ruled that the cards were live and instructed the dealer to run out the turn and the river. The pot was awarded. I had one happy player and one not so happy player. In the end the rules are pretty clear on what to do in this situation.
The Takeaway: Always always protect your hand and be fully aware of the action around you. If the cards were actually in the muck the ruling may have been different - They need to be fully retrievable and totally identifiable, so the player got lucky. The losing player left the room but did come back to discuss the ruling I made. I sat with him and showed him the TDA Rules I used to make the call. I don’t think he was totally convinced but at lease he heard me out outside the heat of the moment.
We had a situation in the room this week where there was a miscount or a miscommunication between a player and the dealer regarding an all-in bet and call.
What transpired:
Player in the 3 seat raised, player in the 7 seat declares All-In. The player in the 3 seat asked for a count or how much more and was given the wrong number after the dealer counted out the chips. Player in 3 announces CALL and the cards were flipped. As the dealer prepared to pull in the pot he announced the total all-in and the Player in the 3 seat said that that was not what was given to him and the floor was called.
What I saw when I approached the Table:
when I looked at the table I saw the Player in the 3 seat had a stack of chips out in front of him and the Player in the 7 Seat had a all-in button in front of him and his chips neatly counted out (In the traditional stacks - this will come into play later) and both players cards were tabled.
My Ruling:
Player in the 3 seat could have forfeited the chips he put into the pot and not matched the correct amount (This was based off of TDA Rule 1 which states “Best interest of the game and fairness”) or the player in the 3 seat could if he wanted to see the board run out would have to match the actual chip count from Player in the 7 seat.
This is based off of TDA Rule 49, which states:
POKER IS A GAME OF ALERT, CONTINUOUS OBSERVATION. IT IS THE CALLERS RESPONSIBILITY TO DETERMINE THE CORRECT AMOUNT OF AN OPPONENT’S BET BEFORE CALLING, REGARDLESS OF WHAT IS STATED BY OTHERS. IF A CALLER REQUESTS A COUNT BUT RECEIVES INCORRECT INFORMATION FROM A DEALER OR PLAYER, THEN PUSHES OUT THAT AMOUNT OR DECLARES CALL, THE CALLER HAS ACCEPTED THE FULL CORRECT ACTION AND IS SUBJECT TO THE CORRECT WAGER OR ALL-IN MOUNT.
My thought process:
First I hate making rulings like this because it’s a lose lose situation for me. Someone is always going to be upset. The ruling was pretty easy based on the information I received and the context of rule 49, and I remember a situation just like this in the WSOP a few years ago that stuck in my mind. The dealer having the all-in players neatly counted out in the proper way also helped a lot. The chips were visible and easily counted by any player at the table. The miscommunication was unfortunate and we never like to see a player upset but that was the ruling by the floor.
Kyle went into the tournament ranked 42nd with most of his cashes coming in our DoorBuster tournaments. He outlasted a great stacked field to take down the honor and the Player of the Year Trophy. As part of his prize package he will be cruising on the Ante Up Poker Cruise in October with his Main Event included.
The 2024 Player of the Year is starting..... Don't miss your chance to join Kyle as a PPC Champion.
The Play Poker Chicago Player of there Year Final Table consisted of:
As a player, there is something to be said for having a massive pile of chips in front of you…. It makes you feel good about yourself. You can use them to intimidate other players, to build a massive wall to hide your cards from nosy neighbors or practice your architectural skills and build a cool castle. But……..
As a floor person I HATE BIG PILES OF CHIPS!!!!! Every time we come around to color up chips, it’s a battle with someone, “Please don’t color these up…… I like a big stack” There are several reasons we color up chips, the main one, is it makes it easier on the dealers. I just saw a story about the WSOP (World Series Of Poker not OUR Winter Series Of Poker ;-) Paradise event where poker pro Daniel Neilson lost 10,000,000 in chips because of a dealer counting error. This may have cost him a lot of real money.
Counting mistakes are one of the main reason we like less chips on the table. Believe it or not dealers are human and make mistakes (I know shocking) but, in reality it's easy to make a counting mistake when you have six people trying to do your job and shouting out random numbers at you. The fewer chips on the table the better the chance to get the counts right. Also, remember, per the TDA rules if the dealer makes an error and you “Call” a all-in and the error is discovered before the chips are pushed you have to call the correct amount, even if you were told a different number by the dealer - The player has a responsibility to observe the counting and to make sure it is correct.
Less chips on the table also speeds up the game. Hands per hour increases with less chips on the table and that’s good for the players. There are less delays after you scoop a big pot and are first to act - you know the cards sit there until you finish stacking. It’s the worst feeling to be sitting on a short stack, watching the blind timer tick away and have delays because of having so may chips on the table. Less chips equals more hands.
In closing I know players want a stack to the ceiling…. but a lot of chips on the table is one of the things I hate about poker.
What is charity poker? I get this question a lot. First, YES you can win REAL CASH!
At its simplest a charity poker room is a real poker room like you’ve played in at casinos. We have great dealers, we have floor staff to make sure the game is fair and we a great player friendly atmosphere for players of all levels. But, I think it’s really more than that. Our charity partners and Play Poker Chicago have several tournaments running during each event. We want to have something for everyone from larger tournaments to our smaller ones and everything in between. Your rake goes to great causes, we support veterans organizations, animal rescues and everything in between. But, let’s break down what a Charity Poker Room is and is not:
1 - Show me the Money!
Tournaments pay out cash as do the cash tables. You don’t have to give the charity any of your winnings, as the tournament/cash rake is given to the charity running the event. There are special rules we need to adhere to per the Illinois law, but in most cases they don’t come into play for most of our tournaments.
2 - Multiple Tournaments
If you play poker at a casino, most days they have one tournament. We cater to tournament players by having several tournaments per event. We usually kick off the day with a DeepStack with a buy-in anywhere between $100. and $200. Most will have 20 minute blind levels and a great player friendly structure.
Our second tournament is our DoorBuster. This is a series of smaller buy-in tournaments with buy-ins between $25. and $40. One of our cornerstone features is we never want to have Shovefest blind levels or structures. So our small tournaments, unlike our competition. will feature 15 minute levels, good starting stacks and playable blind levels.
We have added a 6:00PM Road Runner Sit-n-Go with a $50. Buy-in, 10 person max table with no add-on so players have something to do after the early tournaments and before the evening ones. With the success of the Summer Series and it’s mixed games don’t be surprised if we toss a few Road Runner Mixed Games into the mix for the players that love them.
We finish off the day with a evening tournament, which will range from $50. to $100. buy-ins. This one is usually a mix of tournaments from DeepStacks, to winner takes all to other fun tournaments usually these will feature 15 - 20 minute levels and again our signature player friendly structures and good starting stacks.
3 - Cash Tables
Just like at a casino, again you sit down with your chips and leave when you want and cash in your winnings. we offer, in conjunction, with our charity partners offer several different cash table options.
1/2/3 This is our bigger game and the most popular. Buy-in is uncapped and the table features a 3 blind format is is played 8 handed.
1/2 This is our smaller game. This table will cater to newer cash players, looking to get their feet wet at a cash table and players looking to play cash on a smaller budget. Table Buy-in ranges from as low as $50 to maximum of $250. This is a firm limit that cannot be changed regardless of time of day. The table has a maximum $5.00 straddle and has a firm no bomb pot rule. This table is for players looking to play lower stakes and have fun doing it.
In the fall we will begin offering a PLO game to our players, and we will always spread any game based on demand.
4 - We got the look!
I and the management team of Play Poker Chicago has played in other charity rooms. We wanted something better. So when we started we wanted to be the best - designed by players for players. So we ordered great tables and had them customized with our logo. We made sure to get quality chips and we replace cards when needed - new decks are ordered every two or three months. We have played in dirty charity rooms and we didn’t like the feel, so we made a commitment to always keep things fresh and clean.
5 - Fair Play
Before we started Play Poker Chicago, I was playing in a charity room on a day after a holiday and a friend of mine made the cash in a rather large field tournament — and the money didn’t add up based on the number of players in the tournament. This is a big problem, there are some ethical issues out there. We at Play Poker Chicago make sure that not only our charity partners get what’s coming to them but, we make sure the players do as well. Our clocks and room management system tracks the players registered and the re-buys in real time so you can see the prize pool growing on the monitors and you know we have nothing up our sleeves.
6 - Why pick us
There are 4 charity rooms in the Chicagoland area - Play Poker Chicago is the puppy of the group. We have innovations others don’t, we offer you our THE Club Player Card - this speeds up check-in and offerers additional perks. We have a professional Poker Room Management system, this is great for tracking buy-ins, and has great features to help us manage the room so you have a great place to play. We offer tournament pre-pay on our website so you can guarantee a seat, get bonus chips and use a card to pay for your seat. Most importantly we want and value you playing with us, we will never take you for granted. Everything we do in the room is with you in mind.
7 - A Safe Place to Play.
Everyone has a license issued by the state of Illinois. The Charities host are licensed, the venue is licensed and the equipment supplier is licensed. This means you have a safe room to play in and you will never not get paid what you earn at the tables.
So in closing if you are not playing poker in a charity room….. Get out to out events this weekend!! We have everything you want in a poker room and more. For up-to-date event information visit our website at playpokerchicago.com we hope to see you on the felt soon.
When I started Play Poker Chicago I wanted to focus on working with as many veterans organizations as we could. Veterans and active duty military members hold a special place in my heart. My uncle and cousin served in the Marines, and I have seen their dedication to this wonderful country and I’m so proud of them and their service. We all owe the brave men and women who have served and are currently serving a big thank you.
We are always looking for new ideas to bring something different to Play Poker Chicago and our players. One night when I was working on our Summer Series and listening to the Ante Up podcast (If you haven’t checked them out you should) I thought why don’t we run a special event for our military players and as I often do I couldn’t stop a one event……. I thought we need something bigger…. and The Veterans Poker Tour was born.
The Veterans Poker Tour will consist of 11 events, one a month between July and May of each year, and conclude with the VPT Main Event every June. Tour events will be hosted and help support our VFW’s and American Legion partners. You must be a veteran or active duty military member to play in these events. The events will feature 20 minute levels and a very player friendly blind structure. Buy-in’s are $60.00 for 10,000 starting chips, plus a $20.00 optional table add-on for an additional 10,000 chips and players will have one last chance to add 10,000 chips to their stack for a $20.00 first break last chance add-on. If you pre-register on the website you’ll also get a 1,000 bonus chip. Each player is only allowed one rebuy per event.
I’m very proud of the Veterans Poker Tour and if you are a Vet or active duty military member or know someone that is, please spread the word about the first event this Saturday July 15th at Cantigny Post VFW in Joliet located at 826 Horseshoe Drive. The full tour schedule can be found on our website at: https://www.playpokerchicago.com/vpt
The TDA (Tournament Directors Association) meets every 2 years in Las Vegas at the WSOP to update and tweak the rules that most tournaments are run by, including Play Poker Chicago events.
We had a situation come up in the room about a premature turn card coming out in a hand. Our floor person advised the dealer to leave the turn burn card out and to reshuffle the stub without putting the river card out face down, and a player questioned it. It was explained that it was one of the revised “Recommended Procedures” put in place at the 2022 TDA meeting.
Here is the new rule on prematurely dealt cards from the 2022 TDA rule book.
RP-5. Prematurely Dealt Cards
Board and burn cards are sometimes dealt prematurely, before action on the preceding round is finished. The general procedures for these situations are:
A: Premature flop, leave the flop burn card as the burn. Return the premature board cards to the deck stub and reshuffle the entire stub. Re-deal the flop (without another burn) from the newly shuffled stub.
B: A premature turn card: leave the turn burn card as the burn. Return the premature turn card to the deck stub and reshuffle the entire stub. Re-deal the turn (without another burn) from the newly shuffled stub
C: A premature river card: leave the river burn card as the burn. Return the premature river card to the deck stub and reshuffle the entire stub. Re-deal the river (without another burn) from the newly shuffled stub
From time to time we will post updated rules and procedures on the Facebook page, to help keep you up-to-date on rule changes and to clarify some of the issues we had at an event.
If you have any rule questions, pleas post them and we will answer them in future post.
How do you quantify the Loss of Doyle “Texas Dolly” Brunson?
His name is synonymous with Texas Hold Em. I’m a Moneymaker era player, I played a bit before that, but that WSOP and his run along with the birth of online apps; that’s when I was hooked. So when I started taking the game seriously, I wanted to read a book and of course everyone said “Super System” is the bible. It was a great read but even more so it was my introduction to a legend of the game, Doyle Brunson.
As many of you that got into the game at that time, I soaked it up. Watching every poker show out there, and a lot of them talked about Doyle. He was a living legend, and his stories….. and the stories about him, you had to fall in love with him as a player. Playing at a level that I could only dream of in his late 70’s, putting the kids to shame. He was and will always be the face I think of when I think of Texas Hold’ em.
With most things I do, I like to learn a bit about the history, it gives me a sense of understanding. One of the things I did on my first trip to Las Vegas after I became a “Poker Player” was visit Binion’s poker room, because I wanted to soak up the history. Looking at the photos, touching the autographed table top on the wall, sitting in a chair at a poker table that Doyle himself might have sat in (oh the chairs looked like they were never changed…. ever…. so I know a lot of famous butts sat there ;-) It was a thrill that made me forget busting out of the tournament and losing a bunch of cash. It was worth it, I played where Texas Dolly played.
On his blog when he retired from tournament play he posted ”Don’t cry because it’s over, smile because it happened” and on this trying day for the poker world. I’m not going to cry because we lost a legend of the game, I’m going to celebrate because HE happened.
I want to thank you Doyle for helping to introduce me to the game I now love. But losing you, that’s one of the things I hate about poker.
As I sit at my desk on this second day of the new year and ponder my life choices, I’m content. Took a while to get there but yeah, content - that’s a ok way to start, right?
Starting Play Poker Chicago has been a long process and with covid, and other things it’s taken longer to get rolling that I wanted. But here we are January 2023 and I’m content. We are small but growing every week. We are proud to announce the we will be operating every Saturday in 2023 and expanding to two days per week in the fall. There may be a few dates open put we will be more consistent that ever.
We know that we are the babies, the new kid that is kick around…… but, we are also the scrappy underdog that you need to watch out for.
I had a dream when I started the company. I wanted to help charities raise some money for good causes and I wanted a better option for the players that spend their money at poker charity events. I wanted to be a place where the players are treated the right way. We have a lot of innovations that we are proud of:
- Better Tournament Structures
- Player Cards - To speed Up Check-in
- Better Tournament Clocks
- 9 Handed Play in all Tournaments
- Player of the Year Standings
After we announced some of the above our competition changed up to match us in a lot of cases. So we must be doing something right. We will continue to strive to be the best.
For those that have been in our room THANK YOU we would not be here without you and your support. But, we want to grow up and continue to improve and we will strive to be your “Go To” poker room so if you have any suggestions please seek me out of drop me a email at kevin@playpokerchicago.com
And if you tried us and thought we were too small or if you haven’t gave us a shot yet. This is my appeal to you……. Please visit us and help us grow into the best room in the Chicagoland area. The pieces are here the only thing missing is YOU!
2023 is going to be BIG for Play Poker Chicago - Don’t miss out!
They have all been lying to us. Size does matter, no matter what they say! Stack size that is ;-)
Tournament poker is the ultimate test. Everyone starts with the same stack size and you see who has the biggest at the end. But, average stack size is so important when you are maneuvering through a tournament and many charity tournament players are totally in the dark about the number of chips in play, number of players/rebuys and most importantly the average chip stack of the remaining players. In most cases it’s not their fault. It’s the poker rooms fault. We’ll get back to that in a bit, but first a story….
I was playing over the weekend as we were testing out our new poker room management system and noticed a few friends getting way below the average stack size of the remaining players in our tournament. They were playing their style and not adjusting to the rising average stack size of the players around them. It killed their chances of winning because before they realized they were getting short, it was too late. They were picked off one by one.
I was paying very close attention to the average stack size in the room, as players were eliminated. I adjusted my bet sizing and pushed the action because of it a few times where I may have normally sat back. There were also times I laid down a hand or two that I may have pushed with if I was below average. Knowing what the average stack size in the room at any given time made me a better player.
Most charity room players don’t have this useful information. Why?
Their poker room is letting them down. Either because the clocks they use are very basic and don’t provide the information. Or even worse, their clocks can provide the information, but they are not kept up to date because the management is lazy. They think you’ll just some back again and again even though they are not putting forth the effort to earn your repeat visits to their room.
We want you in our room! Play Poker Chicago has invested in a great poker room management system, it’s casino quality, for you our valued players. Our clocks will show the total players that have registered along with the total number of rebuys, total chips in play and most importantly the average chip stack of the remaining players. We want you to have all the information available to help make you a better player.
Oh, and we don’t hide the prize pool. It’s right on the tournament clock as players register, rebuy or add-on the prize pool is updated in real time for you to see. The payouts will also be posted on the clock, after registration closes.
In closing, come out and give us a try, you won’t regret it. We are working hard to building a special room for you, our valued players. As we say, Play Poker Chicago was built by players for players!
